• Peter: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

    Characters: Rittal[85] Mieville[80] Terlan[80] Caltera[67] Dynia[67]
    Created: 2008-11-11 23:51:48

    Well, it's not a huge point coming up to the release of Wrath and it's mainly a question for instancing. But how long can you last DPSing?

    I've been doing a few back of the postage stamp calculations using my Felhunter and having a combined mana pool (Dark Pact) of 13000 I can effectively get 30 Shadow Bolts off in a fight, which apart from redoing DOTs is what I've been doing.

    Now obviously I have Life Tap, which converts 1366 mana into health.

    My Fel Armor heals me for 136 every 5 seconds, and Syphon Life gives me 63 every 3 seconds. Which is essentially averaged to 48 hps. Additionally I have haunt which gives me at least 655 health every 12 seconds, or 54.6 hps. Combine them both and my health regen is just over 100 hps.

    I was initially worrying, and I think I'm slightly thrown off a little because of our healers uber skillz. However Warlocks are designed to take their own health as mana, and their pets mana.

    I just tried an experiment with the new dummies, keeping the following DoTs up:
    Corruption
    Curse of Agony
    Syphon Life
    Unstable Affliction
    Haunt

    Then spamming shadow bolts continiously and regenerating DoTs. Hitting Life Tap every time my mana went down by 1366, letting the self heals build it back up over the next 13 seconds. Dark Pacting from the pet when the health was a bit lower then I'd like or needed more mana (when regenerating DoTs).

    The net result is that on an "Expert's Training Dummy" (i.e. a level 70 mob) I was able to maintain a DPS of 794 for just under 11 minutes, causing 531.9k of damage.

    I *think* I've just figured out how to play a warlock. Now if I maintain good discipline, and our healer isn't being stretched by tank heals, then I could keep going until they run out of mana. Of course this assumes that I'm not getting damage from AOE, or other spells, or issues... like pulling agro. Which is never the case. ;)

    So locks, without a healer, how long can you go? Mages, I'd be interested in you guys, without mana pots please.

    Andy, this the kind of theory-crafting you think PL are after?

    P.
    "I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be." -- Douglas Adams

    • Andy: Re: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

      Characters: Marlen[85] Egeria[81] Davarnon[80] Lyia[61] Krafla[34]
      Created: 2008-11-12 08:37:03

      Yeah wow this is really awesome, makes me want to log Meth and see how long I could keep her gong for, I doubt it'd be as long as 11 mins, but would be interested to find out. Yeah I think this is probably what they're looking for, wonder if they've already filled the position!?
      "My interest in what you're talking about is low to moderate" -- Vork

    • Chris: Re: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

      Characters: Allynne[85] Phelia[85] Massus[81] Akkyyr[74] Aerryn[46]
      Created: 2008-11-12 11:17:52 Edited: 2008-11-12 11:19:47

      A DPS of 750+ for 11 minutes? Well clearly mages aren't necessary now, so instead of posting my DPS stats, I'll do a runthrough of Massus' tanking abilities.

      I picked up a group of randoms (consisting of myself, 2 rogues, a warlock and a priest) and took them to Sethekk Halls. Basically mage tanking is rather difficult with the limited set of abilities we have;
      -Fireball (main threat generation, 3.5 second cast time without talents, but that's not so big a problem now with the new spell pushback rules)
      -Frost nova (small amount of threat, mostly used to stop mobs running after the healer)
      -Blizzard / Arcane Explosion (used to build aggro on multiple mobs, more effective than swipe or cleave)
      -Invisibility (used to prevent own death)
      -Ice Armour (self armour buff)
      -Frost Shield (limited damage absorbtion)
      -Ice Block (another death prevention tactic; very effective)

      It turns out that tanking with a mage is a game of two halves. Firstly, aggro building is rather easy; it was very rare that the rogues managed to pull mobs from me. With most mage abilities being ranged, it's extremely easy to pull also.

      The problems really started when we came across mobs that we couldn't kill within the first 5 seconds of a fight. The main issue with mage tanking is survivability. I know it seems strange that a man in a dress can't survive for longer than a man dressed head to toe in solid blocks of iron, but this is how fights tended to go;
      -Cast fireball to pull mob and gain aggro.
      -Panic.
      -Start casting second fireball; usually at half health by this point.
      -Frost nova, freezing mob in place for a few seconds whilst the healers catch up.
      -Run away and cast invisibility, removing myself from combat and sacrificing the healer and DPSers for the good of the party.
      -Eat manna biscuit.
      -Return to start of instance to help people returning from the graveyard.

      We eventually calculated that our chance of survivability was greatly enhanced when partying with classes that can combat res, and we came out with a survival chance of -31%, meaning that the party tended to die 15 minutes prior to the fight starting, before we'd logged in and partied up. It's rather a different playstyle to tanking with a warrior or paladin, but with a few tweaks I think it could be viable.

      The tweaks would require upping the max party size to 30, and grouping with 29 healers. And a GM.

      • Andy: Re: Re: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

        Characters: Marlen[85] Egeria[81] Davarnon[80] Lyia[61] Krafla[34]
        Created: 2008-11-12 11:45:01 Edited: 2008-11-12 11:45:23

        HAHAHAA. Trying not to laugh out loud at work!

        request sticky :P
        "My interest in what you're talking about is low to moderate" -- Vork

      • Sara: Re: Re: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

        Characters: Tesandra[85] Sevelyn[82] Elveria[81] Valediren[80] Eláviel[20]
        Created: 2008-11-12 12:10:34

        *dies from laughing*

        Damn Chris, and there was me hoping that you'd help us fill the Andy shaped hole while for the start of Wrath. I guess I'll have to rethink that plan, I don't know any GMs.
        "And then there's aggro to worry about."
        "What's 'aggro'?"
        "Well, it's complicated. But loosely translated, it means 'The Priest Dies.'"

      • Chris: Re: Re: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

        Characters: Allynne[85] Phelia[85] Massus[81] Akkyyr[74] Aerryn[46]
        Created: 2008-11-12 12:13:38 Edited: 2008-11-12 12:17:50

        In all seriousness though, there are tricks to being able to maintain similar DPS. Massus has the following abilities that help here;
        -Evocation; our main mana regeneration skill - cooldown of 5 minutes, and restores 60% total mana over 8 seconds.
        -Summon Water elemental; restores a small amount of mana per second whilst it's up, as well as adding to DPS. Works out at 7.2% mana returned (to the whole party, not just the caster) over the minute duration, with a cooldown of 2.4 minutes.
        -Mana gems; not really a potion as they're a class ability. Restores around 2400 mana every 2 minutes.

        Now Massus' crit chance very much depends on the mob he's fighting. If they can be snared, the chance is far higher, as a frozen target gives an extra 50% crit chance. The target dummies can be snared, so the data I've gathered regards snareable targets. I maintained a DPS of 842 over 4 minutes, for a total of 201000 damage. According to this new fangled Recount mod that Sara gave me, that was with a crit rate of 40%.

        There is however another strategy; our Invisibility spell lets us drop out of combat completely, and therefore lets us eat manna biscuits. So, putting this into the rotation allows me to fight for a grand total of 14 minutes (including three 30 second eating periods, where obviously I'm not doing any damage unless my elemental's up), for a total of 787000 damage and DPS of 899. This is with a substantially smaller mana pool and a little less +spell power than Pete has before trinkets start popping. If I somehow managed to sneak a Summon Mana Gem into there, I could theoretically fight indefinitely.

        If we ever go to an instance where I'm required to fight for this long, remind me to bring a book.

        • Sara: Re: Re: Re: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

          Characters: Tesandra[85] Sevelyn[82] Elveria[81] Valediren[80] Eláviel[20]
          Created: 2008-11-12 12:18:25

          On top of this, Mana pots are pretty cheap and you can use them every 3 mins for instant mana regen on top of your other abilities. At least I don't think they changed how mana pots work? I know there was talk about changing how potions in general worked in raid situations.

          All this is making me want to investigate how much out and out solid healing I could do, but it's somehow counter productive as I need to be able to heal multiple targets, and my choices of spells greatly depend on the situation.
          "And then there's aggro to worry about."
          "What's 'aggro'?"
          "Well, it's complicated. But loosely translated, it means 'The Priest Dies.'"

        • Chris: Re: Re: Re: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

          Characters: Allynne[85] Phelia[85] Massus[81] Akkyyr[74] Aerryn[46]
          Created: 2008-11-12 12:38:26

          I think mana potions and mana gems share a cooldown, so it's not quite as easy for a mage. If well timed though, it could pay for a Summon Mana Gem spell (a hefty 2400 or so mana), and facilitate the endless awesome.

        • Carrot: Re: Re: Re: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

          Characters: Glorif[85] Heclan[73] Nathrezim[37] Cuchillo[23]
          Created: 2008-11-12 13:38:50

          Nope, Mana and health pots share, and Healthstones and Mana Gems share, but the pots and stones/gems don't share.
          Wash: This is going to get pretty interesting.
          Mal: Define interesting...
          Wash: Oh god, oh god, we're all going to die?

        • Chris: Re: Re: Re: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

          Characters: Allynne[85] Phelia[85] Massus[81] Akkyyr[74] Aerryn[46]
          Created: 2008-11-12 13:40:45

          That must have changed since the last time I tried then.... probably over 2 years ago.

      • Peter: Re: Re: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

        Characters: Rittal[85] Mieville[80] Terlan[80] Caltera[67] Dynia[67]
        Created: 2008-11-12 12:19:59

        You sir, are a legend.
        "I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be." -- Douglas Adams

      • Andy: Re: Re: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

        Characters: Marlen[85] Egeria[81] Davarnon[80] Lyia[61] Krafla[34]
        Created: 2008-11-12 12:53:37

        OK I want to add into the fun of this. I could tell you how much damage I could keep doing as a tank in bear form, but i really think it's pretty much indefinate as long as I'm getting healed seeing as my rage won't be running out ever, so my life relies on the healers mana pool.

        ~~

        Now I feel as the guilds only shadow priest with raiding experience I should dwell on the awesomeness of the least loved clothie damage class.

        Shadow Priests are basically mana batteries. They have a (I think 5 min cooldown) on a shadow fiend which gives back about 50% of your mana back. and then there's the various DoTs that deal constant damage. The most useful one being Vampiric Touch which gives mana back to the party as a percentage of the amount of shadow damage that the shadow priest does. Now I'm not going to start throwing around actual timings of how long I could last for but I figure if I didn't throw out mind blasts and SW:Deaths every time I could and instead kept up a steady mana-efficient mind flay (which I think on the latest patch refreshes most of your DoTs too) I could probably keep goig for quite a while.

        Of course there's another gem that i can throw in here, the new bottom of the tree talent for shadow Priests which makes me want to level Egeria as soon as I can and get playing her with you guys. The talent turns me into a ball of shadow yada yada yada but yeah you've guessed it, gives me back stupid amounts of mana per tick.

        Drool I miss my Shadow Priest
        "My interest in what you're talking about is low to moderate" -- Vork

    • Carrot: Re: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

      Characters: Glorif[85] Heclan[73] Nathrezim[37] Cuchillo[23]
      Created: 2008-11-12 13:40:16 Edited: 2008-11-12 13:43:51

      I can do about 1k DPS as Brev on the lvl 70 target dummy, but only keep that up for about a minute or so before I go OOM (this according to Violation, as DamageMeters DPS doesn't seem to average over the whole fight, only over the last X seconds). This without using any pots or class abilities like Evocation, Invis or Mana Gems. The issue with the target dummies is I seem to go out of combat really quickly, so in the time it takes to evoke, or while i'm drinking after an invis, Violation notes i've gone out of combat and stops dropping my DPS down each second, so the value given is inaccurate (I think).

      I gave it a go though. Tried using evocation the first time I went OOM and a Mana Emerald the second time. Got ~900 dps (Am doing this in Linux at work, and my screen froze a few times, so that should prob be higher), and a total of 112k damage before I went OOM.

      To be fair though, i'd like to see any Tank hold aggro off me if I was doing that rotation, and it tells me what sort of damage I can do before OOM, which looks about right if you look at the health levels of mobs and bosses in instances vs the number of people in the instance and factor in mana regen when i'm not casting etc.

      I'm also wondering if it's worth throwing a Living Bomb into that mix for damage/mana, although the main bonus of it comes when you've got a lot of adds.

      The thing that matters is less 'How long can you keep it up?' and more 'How much damage can you put out in the shortest time possible without overaggroing?' Boss fights last about 3-5 minutes, if that. A lot are a lot shorter, and many have the boss do something that basically makes them unkillable after that sort of time.
      Wash: This is going to get pretty interesting.
      Mal: Define interesting...
      Wash: Oh god, oh god, we're all going to die?

      • Chris: Re: Re: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

        Characters: Allynne[85] Phelia[85] Massus[81] Akkyyr[74] Aerryn[46]
        Created: 2008-11-12 13:46:04

        Yeah, a fair point. The "rotation" (casting frostbolt until one of my specials procs, at which point I throw out a free fireball or an ice lance) I used for my data would have had me killed long before I ran out of mana the first time, but then all of this is academic anyway, as no fight I've had with you guys has ever extended past about 2 minutes without rest periods. Sometimes it's just fun to calculate. :D

      • Carrot: Re: Re: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

        Characters: Glorif[85] Heclan[73] Nathrezim[37] Cuchillo[23]
        Created: 2008-11-12 13:56:58

        I tried throwing in a Living Bomb, with no Evocation or similar again. 1.2k DPS, 68k damage before I went OOM. So it looks like even on a single target it's handy, but if there *are* adds I would have to be careful to not aggro them.
        Wash: This is going to get pretty interesting.
        Mal: Define interesting...
        Wash: Oh god, oh god, we're all going to die?

      • Andy: Re: Re: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

        Characters: Marlen[85] Egeria[81] Davarnon[80] Lyia[61] Krafla[34]
        Created: 2008-11-12 14:05:16

        Raid bosses however may take ten or more minutes, which may will be a factor if we start running ten mans when we have enough level 80s
        "My interest in what you're talking about is low to moderate" -- Vork

        • Carrot: Re: Re: Re: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

          Characters: Glorif[85] Heclan[73] Nathrezim[37] Cuchillo[23]
          Created: 2008-11-12 15:08:57 Edited: 2008-11-12 15:10:03

          You reckon? The only raids i've seen where a successful boss kill went over a couple of minutes was ones that have aggro wipe abilities or keep vanishing or whatever, so you're not all-out dpsing *anyway*, so you retain mana a lot better. When I said a lot have enrage abilities after 3 mins or so and become impossible to kill I was talking about my experience of lvl 60 40/25 mans and Kara/Gruul/Maggy once we hit 70, before I stopped raiding. Even if the boss doesn't have anything like that, much more than 3 mins and all our healers started going OOM. Even I could keep going for that sort of time or more with pots, evocate, mana gems etc etc.
          Wash: This is going to get pretty interesting.
          Mal: Define interesting...
          Wash: Oh god, oh god, we're all going to die?

        • Sara: Re: Re: Re: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

          Characters: Tesandra[85] Sevelyn[82] Elveria[81] Valediren[80] Eláviel[20]
          Created: 2008-11-12 15:13:56

          According to most of the stuff I'd been reading about TBC raiding, and from talking to my friend in the raiding guild, boss encounters seem quite often to last 10 minutes, but never much more than that for good reason; the standard "enrage" mechanic in TBC is..

          10 minutes after the pull
          * damage done increases by 500% (= six times the standard damage)
          * cast and attack speed increase by 150% (= 2.5 times faster than normal)

          Quite a lot of the reports I'd read would be people saying they'd downed X boss 15 seconds after the enrage timer kicked in. Though this was of course before the 'lolpatch' reducing all the boss's HP. I suppose the length of encounters is well below the 10 minute cut off now...
          "And then there's aggro to worry about."
          "What's 'aggro'?"
          "Well, it's complicated. But loosely translated, it means 'The Priest Dies.'"

        • Andy: Re: Re: Re: DPSers, how long can you keep it up?

          Characters: Marlen[85] Egeria[81] Davarnon[80] Lyia[61] Krafla[34]
          Created: 2008-11-12 15:26:35

          True yeah you're not all out DPSing for that amount of time due to the pauses in the fight rotation. In fact very rarely will you be all out dpsing as you'd be OAing if you did
          "My interest in what you're talking about is low to moderate" -- Vork